The return of IMSLP

Messages from and Discussions about IMSLP

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vivaldi85
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Postby vivaldi85 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:21 pm

At the very least, could we see a list or time line of events that have occurred in the past so we know what has been done/accomplished/tried/attempted and what has been going on since the take down of IMSLP, regardless of whether or not it has been successful?

Vivaldi
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Postby Vivaldi » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:29 am

Unfortunately, not everyone person is privy to the developments of IMSLP since it went down and when it is expected to be up again. Suffice to say that the administrators of IMSLP are trying their hardest to get IMSLP back again. Plus, they are other issues to resolve, particularly regarding copyrights of scores and these take time. Please consider that this is not an easy task considering the number of people directly involved in IMSLP.

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Postby Justin » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:54 pm

I don't really know about all the laws or copyright issues, but please keep on "fighting" guys, I'll give you all mentally support and I really hope IMSLP will come back in the future.

Do your best!
Gambate!
加油!

CameronMB
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Postby CameronMB » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:17 pm

I'm very disappointed in the lack of substantive updates to IMSLP, even to the Wiki information page. I feel that this is too valuable a resource for Feldmahler to just allow to remain unfulfilled. While it may have been his idea originally, it's a major disservice to many people and institutions that more effort has not been made into getting the site back up sooner.

Furthermore, it's clear that the taking down of the site was an overreaction, a knee-jerk sensationalization of the unfortunate Cease & Desist Letter. I too wrote to UE expressing my distaste for their action, but I am beginning to feel equally unhappy with Feldmahler's (lack of) action.

We can see plenty of this sensationalization in the body of the Wiki explanation page; that whole "weep with me" schtick is unprofessional and reflects poorly on its author. It is immature and melodramatic.

I have kept quiet about this for a long time. I initially was very supportive of Feldmahler, and have always been supportive of IMSLP; I helped edit it, and promoted it a good deal amongst friends, family, and classmates. But, I repeat, this is a resource that - even in stripped-back form - needs to exist, and I believe that Feldmahler is making a poor decision by not accepting one of the generous offers to shepherd this resource.

I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. Pass it off to someone who can handle it, Feld.

If I have made any enemies with this post, I apologize. I really don't intend disrespect. I am trying to incite some sort of action which - going by the purely outward signs, at least - seems to have crawled to a standstill. I appreciate that people have lives to lead, but IMSLP probably should never have gone offline in the first place, and after a great interval of waiting with no obvious signs of change, I am beginning to get frustrated, tired, and upset. Know that I am a friend to IMSLP and to anyone who will help to get it back up and running.

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Postby Carolus » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:21 am

Cameron, while I can understand your frustration, it's wrong to characterize Feldmahler's taking down the site as an emotional over-reaction. The Universal C & D was but the leading edge of what is probably a deliberate legal harrassment campiagn at the behest of a group of European publishers.

IMSLP was obliquely mentioned as a threat to their continued existence in a trade newsletter over a year before the C & D materialized. This mention was accompanied by an explicit call to initiate legal actions to shut down sites of this nature.

The other factor here was the rapid growth of the site which left literally thousands of files uninspected as to the presence of trade marks, copyrighted text, etc. Posters who just threw up anything they had with nary a care about who originally published the score, etc. weren't really helping this issue. We are presently going through the thousands of files to weed out any real copyright violations, trademark violations, etc. In the future, all uploads will have to go into an area were they are carefully reviewed page by page before anything appears on the site itself.

IMSLP would probably win in a legal dogfight with UE over the titles mentioned in light of UE's total incompetence in naming the titles, where they are copyrighted, etc. Even so, that doesn't mean we'd be able to withstand a multi-publisher legal assault - which is exactly what has been planned - without having every single item thoroughly documented.

As an example of what I'm talking about, even though George Gershwin died in 1937 (and is now public domain in most of the world) many of the songs he's famous for are still under copyright - even in Canada. Why? because the lyrics were penned by his brother Ira, who lived until 1983. That little fact didn't stop folks attempting to post the songs at IMSLP, where we had to take them down at once.

vivaldi85
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Postby vivaldi85 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:29 am

But what about Bach?

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Postby Carolus » Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:56 am

Yes, Bach is public domain, strictly speaking. However, a scan of the Bach Gesellschaft Ausgabe with a CD Sheet Music logo on it is not permissible. Why? Because CD Sheet Music is a trademark - even though the scanned music itself is public domain (at least in Canada). Moreover, in certain countries, the PDF file of scanned public domain scores like the Bach Gesellschaft Ausgabe might itself be subject to a form of copyright protection. It's never as simple as people think it is.

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Postby horndude77 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:55 am

I have to say that I agree to some degree with CameronMB on the lack of updates. What the heck is going on?

Who is going to be the parent organization?
What percentage of work is done?
Is any help needed?

This type of stuff would be very useful on the wiki.

-----Jay

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Postby imslp » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:59 am

I've updated the wiki page with a rough timeline.

As for help needed at the moment, perhaps you can ask EFF why they have not responded to either of my e-mails (the first one I sent on Oct. 14th of last year, the second one a month ago). ;) Otherwise I don't believe we need help right now, unless you have an great knowledge of music publications and are willing to spend much time identifying publications, like the copyright reviewers were doing.

CameronMB: I'm very happy to see your enthusiasm for IMSLP. I expect to see a $2000 donation within one week of IMSLP reopening. ;)

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:40 am

I was going to respond to Camerons (Frankly ignorant) statement...

but
I'm very happy to see your enthusiasm for IMSLP. I expect to see a $2000 donation within one week of IMSLP reopening. Wink
Is a perfect responce.

What UE say is propaganda; after all, Mr. Irons is PR, his job is to lie. Try reading what we say and gather evidence rahter than through reckless accusations with no backing.

vivaldi85
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Postby vivaldi85 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:36 am

Yagan Kiely wrote:I was going to respond to Camerons (Frankly ignorant) statement...


If it's ignorant, it's only because you have failed to inform us...

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Postby imslp » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:46 am

There there... let's all stop arguing ;) I know you are all anxious to see IMSLP back up, and I've posted the rough timeline since you guys would like to know about it.

One of the reasons I haven't edited the wiki main page much is because there are so many people subscribed to it that every edit sends out a ton of e-mails, so I didn't want to do it until I had conclusive progress of some sort... or else it'd be like spam. But since people are anxious to know, I've updated the page.

brthrjon
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imagine UE's delight!

Postby brthrjon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:56 pm

All we have to do is send out a couple of letters and the primary source of us NOT being able to extract userous streams of income off of public domain scores folds for what will end up being a year.

What could possibly your reason for bringing down the whole site, with no notice.... and then keeping the whole site down until some big bang date months in the future... Why would you not:

1) give notice before taking everything off line.
2) not bring it back piece meal as you cleared scores.

I'm sure the majority of users would be satisfied with what are blatantly public domain scores (How could you question things like Bach's WTC scores?)

If anything, this activity will only encourage UE and the like to behave this way.

Never in their wildest dreams did they hope for such a victory. Think about their cost benefit ratio!

IMSLP is dead. Time to move on.

Look for everything I have (it isn't much) on the news groups this weekend.

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Postby imslp » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:57 pm

You know, I think UE is even more delighted that you posted that post :) In fact, its the type of post that could well come from UE itself.

Call me the next time you receive paper versions of lawyer's C&D twice in the mail, and decide to throw your future on the line and fight it without any preparation, knowing fully well that you've lost once they manage to drag the case into the courts, regardless of outcome. Whats more is that you are doing this for 1) no profit, and 2) people some of which, as you have yourself shown, care jack about your own wellbeing, but solely for themselves being able to get something for free. If you actually wish to prove yourself otherwise, do what I asked Cameron to do. $2000 won't even cover a fraction of the projected operating costs, but at least you've shown yourself to not be a leecher who only knows how to download, and then insult.

IMSLP will be online when it is. Insulting me does absolutely no good, and in fact makes me want to give up. I'm saved by the fact that there are people who do, in fact, know the hardships involved and are willing to wait.

Let's be frank now. I was extremely angry when I read Cameron's post. The last months have been torture for me trying to find people to take over IMSLP and continue it, and yet here he is, completely oblivious to how hard and time comsuming the process is, and yet shooting off insults like he was entitled to. If he, and indeed you brthrjon, are so confident, how about signing a contract with me which says that you will pay all lawyer fees in the event of a court case? If you will do so, I will reopen IMSLP right away. Do note, however, that I'm not even requiring you to shoulder the fines should the suit turn out unfavorably.

I apologize for this rant. As a leader (even if a former one), I am not entitled to insult people, a rule that I have followed so far. But even I have an endurance limit. And you have made me cross it.

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I did not insult you and...

Postby brthrjon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:29 pm

When I posted more politely you ignored me.

And you still haven't addressed the points.

Why do it this way? Why take it away without warning? Why wait until you've reviewd all of the docs before you start posting? Why ignore offers of help from other pd sites? Why get personl when you get asked questions? Why ignore legitimate questions?


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