The return of IMSLP

Messages from and Discussions about IMSLP

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imslp
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Postby imslp » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:59 pm

Yes it will be handled. We have been in discussion with several lawyers, and we now understand that we are on solid ground.

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Postby Davintxi » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:53 pm

imslp wrote:Yes it will be handled. We have been in discussion with several lawyers, and we now understand that we are on solid ground.


Oh, these are amazing good news! :D ...and do you know, more or less, how long it will take to restart?

You are doing amazing work my friend,...

vivaldi85
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Postby vivaldi85 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:59 pm

Yagan Kiely wrote:
IMSLP, will be coming back exactly as it was before (pretty much).


Which makes me wonder why it was even taken down at all. Ohh, the contradictions...

imslp wrote:we now understand that we are on solid ground.


That's what many people have been trying to tell you from the get-go!

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Postby emeraldimp » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:03 pm

vivaldi85 wrote:That's what many people have been trying to tell you from the get-go!


...Many people who are lawyers and would have agreed to defend Feldmahler in court?

Yagan Kiely
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Postby Yagan Kiely » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:12 am

Which makes me wonder why it was even taken down at all. Ohh, the contradictions...
Please read what Feldmahler has said, Copyright law is not as simple as you obviously think.
Here is an answer (again) for you:

Cameron, while I can understand your frustration, it's wrong to characterize Feldmahler's taking down the site as an emotional over-reaction. The Universal C & D was but the leading edge of what is probably a deliberate legal harrassment campiagn at the behest of a group of European publishers.

IMSLP was obliquely mentioned as a threat to their continued existence in a trade newsletter over a year before the C & D materialized. This mention was accompanied by an explicit call to initiate legal actions to shut down sites of this nature.

The other factor here was the rapid growth of the site which left literally thousands of files uninspected as to the presence of trade marks, copyrighted text, etc. Posters who just threw up anything they had with nary a care about who originally published the score, etc. weren't really helping this issue. We are presently going through the thousands of files to weed out any real copyright violations, trademark violations, etc. In the future, all uploads will have to go into an area were they are carefully reviewed page by page before anything appears on the site itself.

IMSLP would probably win in a legal dogfight with UE over the titles mentioned in light of UE's total incompetence in naming the titles, where they are copyrighted, etc. Even so, that doesn't mean we'd be able to withstand a multi-publisher legal assault - which is exactly what has been planned - without having every single item thoroughly documented.

As an example of what I'm talking about, even though George Gershwin died in 1937 (and is now public domain in most of the world) many of the songs he's famous for are still under copyright - even in Canada. Why? because the lyrics were penned by his brother Ira, who lived until 1983. That little fact didn't stop folks attempting to post the songs at IMSLP, where we had to take them down at once.
.

There were more starting page even in this thread.

Just because all the scores will be the same (a Couple maygo if found to not be PD), doesn't mean we can just willy nilly bring them back up.

I ask you a question:

Would anyone here want IMSLP back up right now, for it to be taken off again in a few months?

Or would you rather wait a few months, and have IMSLP stay online forever?

That's what many people have been trying to tell you from the get-go!
Solid ground means, that the precautions we are taking (which include taking this amount of time to come back online), are solid from a legal point of view.

Law is not a simple as you think, there are MANY loopholes.

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Postby nerd011235 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:37 pm

At the very least, could the new IMSLP be structured so that scores appear on the site only after they have been reviewed and appropriately tagged?
Also, here's a question for a legal expert: Do the tags that accompanied files that weren't PD in all countries protect the site from any potential legal action, should they be downloaded in a country in which the file was copyrighted?

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:38 am

The warnings which were in place were legally sufficient. And no, they are not allowed to download.

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More thoughts

Postby CameronMB » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:04 am

It's been a while since I posted a message a while ago that was somewhat critical of the situation. I responded a few times to try to explain my position more fully, but after having had a good deal of time to think about it, I'd like to quickly explain why I said what I did - to get my perspective out in the open so that I don't seem like a total jerk. I will try to keep this fairly short, and I thank you for indulging me.

Basically, I came across IMSLP fairly recently - perhaps a bit over a year ago. As a music student and piano teacher, I found it to be an amazing resource, and I used it for everything from casual browsing for new repertoire to helping students get music they might not otherwise be able to afford. I managed to get it listed in my school music department's directory of useful music web pages, had the piano teachers at my college plugging the site, etc. Nobody here needs to be told what an awesome resource imslp can be.

Also, in very small ways, I tried to contribute - mostly by adding movement lists and details to the work information pages. I didn't upload much because I don't have much to upload, and - and I'm being honest here - I had not made any financial contributions mostly because I am not a particularly wealthy individual, being a music student. But I say also, in all honesty, that I had plans to contribute financially, in some small way, eventually.

So I come to the site one day thinking everything is hunky dory - and there's that first open letter. I read it, and felt very supportive of Feldmahler. I wrote a serious (but politely worded) e-mail to Universal Edition, and spoke to other students about the situation, hoping perhaps to get some of them to consider doing the same. Oh, and by the way, I never got a response to the e-mail I sent them, rendering the statement that they had responded to "each and every" e-mail false.

But the thing that struck me, especially as more information came out, was that at its essence UE was really only complaining about a few files. I understand at least some of the dynamics at play - I know that they probably would be happy not having ANY public edition music online, because that means more sales for them. But - at least to my understanding - they were really only asking for a select few files to be taken offline.

Yet, without warning, the site had been completely shut down. Not a file was available. And after a while I began to become resentful that this amazing resource, that I had made a part of my life as a student and my career as a piano teacher, and had promoted amongst my fellow teachers and students, was gone, when it only seemed like a few files needed to be taken down.

The passionate wording in more recent cover letters by Feldmahler - the aforementioned "weep with me" statement - struck me, in my state, as perhaps a bit melodramatic. I was still unhappy with UE but now I was also a bit upset that the site had been taken down completely, as well, when it seemed totally unnecessary. And, to be honest, part of me (at the time) wondered whether the C&D letter was being used as an excuse, a scapegoat to escape from the difficult responsibilities of taking care of IMSLP.

Again, this was how I felt then, not how I feel now. I understand that there are some issues of which I was unaware or little aware that would have colored my opinion differently. Please understand that I am only explaining why I saw things a certain way at this time.

To compound the strangeness, though, in my eyes, was that there evidently had been offers to host the site by others (I heard Project Gutenberg mentioned, and others). Not knowing a great deal about the situation, I assumed this would mean Feldmahler would let them take responsibility for the site and the great resource would be back and available very soon.

Instead, months rolled by with little obvious progress, and not a great deal of information on why this was the case.

So, finally, I wrote that post which showed up a while back. Because I really wanted to have imslp back, and from my perspective, all I could see was that it was taken down without warning, seemingly without necessity of a total shutdown, and that offers to host it had not been accepted.

Today, I understand the situation more, and I am more understanding. So I want to reiterate my apology for the harsh wording of my original post, but I wanted to explain why - based on the information of which I was aware - I felt the way I did.

I still want to strongly encourage anyone who can to get the site back up and running as soon as is feasible. I hope there aren't any hurt feelings about what I said before. Yagan was right to a certain extent when s/he said my statement was "ignorant" in that it is true that there were certain aspects of the situation of which I was ignorant (though I didn't exactly appreciate the condescending tone they took with me and other posters, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).

Anyway, thanks.
Cameron

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Postby imslp4 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:27 pm

I've responded to your post via PM, so that we don't get into more mudslinging ;)

To everyone else: yes, we are working on it :) Being patient, and everything will be fine :)

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Postby Vivaldi » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:41 am

Nothing more to add, just would like to say that patience is a virtue.

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Postby wthoang » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:08 pm

hmmm...ive used this website for a while..until it shutdown..i was devastated...i remember when i first found out, i had been longing to get the Piano Concerto No.1 Tchaikovsky but in a desperate attempt to play it for a concert...i went out and spent a good $70 or something for the full score, plus two piano part...i was truly angered...but i cant wait for it to return. I keep coming bak waiting for updates.. Im now a registered user...so i'll come here heaps..

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Postby aldona » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:19 am

imslp4 wrote:yes, we are working on it :) Being patient, and everything will be fine :)


Now don't let us down - especially those of us who are exercising our faith by continuing to scan things for posterity as if nothing has happened!

Otherwise, our labour of love (or is that love of labour?) will be in vain, and you will incur the wrath of our neglected "significant others"!

Aldona (sitting back with a good strong coffee after completing the last of the Schubert-Lieder) :D
“all great composers wrote music that could be described as ‘heavenly’; but others have to take you there. In Schubert’s music you hear the very first notes, and you know that you’re there already.” - Steven Isserlis

Yagan Kiely
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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:27 pm

Maybe it's time for an update of the main page Admins. You did promise, and the date included in the current 'update' isn't quite 'up to date'.

*hint*

imslp
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Postby imslp » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:44 pm

Updated :) By the way, can you give me your temporary-wiki nick again? Apparently I got disconnected on IRC while I was away.

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Postby smallporgies » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:28 am

Thanks for the update! Its good to know how things are progressing :D


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