Upcoming changes

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lekro
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby lekro » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:30 pm

Sallen112 wrote:-snip-


Wow, thanks a lot! That's incredibly useful ^^

Starrmark
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Starrmark » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:09 pm

The most effective and painless way to fund IMSLP on a long term basis would be an annual fund-raising campaign through Kickstarter or IndieGogo. (I prefer IndieGogo because they permit the entity raising funds to keep the donations even if the campaign does not reach its stated goal. However, Kickstarter has wider participation than IndieGogo.)

For any fund-raising campaign to be effective, it must be carefully and attractively presented, with exact figures on how the money will be spent and by whom, statistics on the significance of the organization receiving the contributions, testimonials and reviews, and historical track record.

Also important are perks awarded to contributors (the greater the contribution, the more alluring the perk.) Perks would be easy for IMSLP: a free printed copy of an original manuscript, recordings, or a set of famous works like Beethoven's Symphonies or Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.

It would be both essential and easy for IMSLP to promote such a voluntary fund-raising campaign among its users on its website, in addition to the promotion on the fund-raising website. Fund-raising promotion on IMSLP would essentially be free. And given the enormous number of users and browsers on IMSLP every day, its reach would be global. Either Kickstarter or IndieGogo would take care of financial management of the fund-raising campaign.

Tax-deductibility for contributions is not a requirement for either Kickstarter or IndieGogo, but it can be a significant inducement. This might be a factor in IMSLP's decision possibly to become a non-profit organization. I should note that running a Kickstarter or IndieGogo campaign does not preclude using additional income producing methods, such as web advertisements or direct donations from foundations, etc.

Because IMSLP is such a valuable, useful, free musical resource on a global scale, it could, I believe, attract a substantial amount of contributions through a well-managed website fund-raising campaign. In my opinion, it should set a goal of a considerably high sum that would include not only operating expenses, but also funds for an office and a small staff, and future growth.

MS

Melodia
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Melodia » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:47 pm

If they wanted to go the crowdfunding route, I'd think Patreon would be a much better choice.

Bruckner8
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Bruckner8 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:38 pm

IMSLP is purely a technical platform. It does not need a single person to be paid to do anything, unless, or until, the copyright issues become a central tenet of its operation. Even so, that has already been dealt with, and volunteer members have picked up that slack, calling themselves "Copyright Reviewers."

Thus, 100% of IMSLP's cost is its technical implementation: Web Hosting.

That's it. The End.

That can run anywhere from $4/month for static website, hosted on virtual servers, to $400/month for a dedicated server with multi-processors! For the simple needs of IMSLP (nothing more than a glorified upload/download site with wiki-based front-end.), it should be around $30/month!!

http://www.arvixe.com/asp_net_business_web_hosting

...and that's a Windows platform! I suppose IMSLP is run on free Linux/open source! (should be cheaper yet)

But just for fun, let's assume IMSLP needs the most-expensive web hosting option provided by arvixe.com (could be any host, but their site is perfectly clear), which is Dedicated Hosting, at $359/mo.

http://www.arvixe.com/managed_dedicated_servers

That's less than $4500/year.

And Ed's having trouble fundraising to that amount?

Granted, all of this moot, if Ed's goal is to make money. He's allowed to do that. It's his vision, his site, and his alone. I just wish he'd quit pretending he's providing a wonderful, magnanimous service, lol. Imagine Ed on the gold course, talking to his buddies: "I just sit back whilst these rabid volunteers upload stuff, and equally-rabid musicologists pay to download the same stuff! It's January 25th and my hosting is already paid for the year! Pure profit from here on out, baby!"

Darn, I'm just sour that I didn't think of it first, lol.

KGill
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby KGill » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:32 pm

Bruckner8 wrote:IMSLP is purely a technical platform. It does not need a single person to be paid to do anything, unless, or until, the copyright issues become a central tenet of its operation. Even so, that has already been dealt with, and volunteer members have picked up that slack, calling themselves "Copyright Reviewers."

Actually, if Carolus were to suddenly cease contributing for some reason, there would be plenty of slack to be picked up: he has been the only full-time copyright reviewer since ... 2012? Possibly 2013 at latest? He's a phenomenally dependable person, but he's still one person. It is patently unsustainable in the long term to have a single volunteer administer to most of the wiki day-to-day. (And yes this state of affairs is my fault too, I haven't been full-time since 2011.)

Thus, 100% of IMSLP's cost is its technical implementation: Web Hosting.

That's it. The End.

That can run anywhere from $4/month for static website, hosted on virtual servers, to $400/month for a dedicated server with multi-processors! For the simple needs of IMSLP (nothing more than a glorified upload/download site with wiki-based front-end.), it should be around $30/month!!

With our bandwidth, really? Granted, our daily download count has fallen fairly drastically in the last couple weeks, but before that we were usually over 200k/day (often pushing 300k). And frankly the site can still sometimes be quite sluggish as it is (albeit erratically).

...
That's less than $4500/year.

And Ed's having trouble fundraising to that amount?

Given the uniformly very out-of-the-way methods he's tried before the membership thing, I'm not surprised he's having trouble getting that much.

Granted, all of this moot, if Ed's goal is to make money. He's allowed to do that. It's his vision, his site, and his alone. I just wish he'd quit pretending he's providing a wonderful, magnanimous service, lol. Imagine Ed on the gold course, talking to his buddies: "I just sit back whilst these rabid volunteers upload stuff, and equally-rabid musicologists pay to download the same stuff! It's January 25th and my hosting is already paid for the year! Pure profit from here on out, baby!"

Darn, I'm just sour that I didn't think of it first, lol.

Now I hope you're kidding about this, because this is just not fair. I have some serious issues with Edward's membership plan too, and his lack of almost any sort of disclosure is frustrating, but that's no excuse to smear the guy.

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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Bruckner8 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:08 pm

KGill wrote:
Bruckner8 wrote:IGranted, all of this moot, if Ed's goal is to make money. He's allowed to do that. It's his vision, his site, and his alone. I just wish he'd quit pretending he's providing a wonderful, magnanimous service, lol. Imagine Ed on the gold course, talking to his buddies: "I just sit back whilst these rabid volunteers upload stuff, and equally-rabid musicologists pay to download the same stuff! It's January 25th and my hosting is already paid for the year! Pure profit from here on out, baby!"

Darn, I'm just sour that I didn't think of it first, lol.

Now I hope you're kidding about this, because this is just not fair. I have some serious issues with Edward's membership plan too, and his lack of almost any sort of disclosure is frustrating, but that's no excuse to smear the guy.


Did you see the two "lol"s? This is entertainment for me.

imslp
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby imslp » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:31 am

Bruckner8 wrote:Did you see the two "lol"s? This is entertainment for me.


Thank you for confirming that you are a troll.

Starrmark wrote:The most effective and painless way to fund IMSLP on a long term basis would be an annual fund-raising campaign through Kickstarter or IndieGogo. (I prefer IndieGogo because they permit the entity raising funds to keep the donations even if the campaign does not reach its stated goal. However, Kickstarter has wider participation than IndieGogo.)

For any fund-raising campaign to be effective, it must be carefully and attractively presented, with exact figures on how the money will be spent and by whom, statistics on the significance of the organization receiving the contributions, testimonials and reviews, and historical track record.

Also important are perks awarded to contributors (the greater the contribution, the more alluring the perk.) Perks would be easy for IMSLP: a free printed copy of an original manuscript, recordings, or a set of famous works like Beethoven's Symphonies or Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.

It would be both essential and easy for IMSLP to promote such a voluntary fund-raising campaign among its users on its website, in addition to the promotion on the fund-raising website. Fund-raising promotion on IMSLP would essentially be free. And given the enormous number of users and browsers on IMSLP every day, its reach would be global. Either Kickstarter or IndieGogo would take care of financial management of the fund-raising campaign.

Tax-deductibility for contributions is not a requirement for either Kickstarter or IndieGogo, but it can be a significant inducement. This might be a factor in IMSLP's decision possibly to become a non-profit organization. I should note that running a Kickstarter or IndieGogo campaign does not preclude using additional income producing methods, such as web advertisements or direct donations from foundations, etc.

Because IMSLP is such a valuable, useful, free musical resource on a global scale, it could, I believe, attract a substantial amount of contributions through a well-managed website fund-raising campaign. In my opinion, it should set a goal of a considerably high sum that would include not only operating expenses, but also funds for an office and a small staff, and future growth.

MS


Yes, I've looked at Kickstarter/IndieGogo. They are best for one-time new projects/products that you can build up anticipation for - they are not good for ongoing/maintenance fundraising. Patreon would be closer to the mark, but it is (1) known far less than Kickstarter/IndieGogo and has a significantly smaller user base, and (2) focuses mostly on mainstream YouTube/video/media creation.

Starrmark
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Starrmark » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:51 am

I never understood the argument that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Why don't you try a Kickstarter or IndieGogo fund-raising campaign now to see how much money it pulls in? Like chicken soup, it can't hurt. And it just might solve most of IMSLP's current money woes. Whether or not it will completely fund IMSLP in the next century remains to be seen.

IMSLP has a great advantage over every other fund-raising campaign. You have a website that handles a great number of users and browsers every day. With enormous traffic, you can promote your fund raising-campaign for free on your own website. You can set up links to Kickstarter or IndieGogo directly to your campaign, urging users to donate even a little every time they download a score or a recording.

As mentioned earlier, IndieGogo lets you keep the contributions even if you don't meet your goal. So propose a large-scale project, set a high goal, and actively promote it. Who says these websites are not good for meeting ongoing expenses? Maybe that's true for commercial enterprises. But public services like IMSLP may be different. If you go non-profit, that is another ballgame. Tax-deductible contributions are a powerful inducement (depending in which country IMSLP is based.)

Kickstarter and IndieGogo take a cut of the proceeds, but they provide incredibly valuable services. They handle the financial transactions, including conversion of contributions in various curriencies. For IMSLP, with users in every country, that is very important. They provide records. And their websites attract the scrutiny of many social-minded, wealthy potential contributors--some of whom are music lovers.

As the director of a musical organization that has used IndieGogo in the past with highly successful results, I can attest to the effectiveness of these fund-raising websites--that is if the campaign is carefully prepared and actively promoted.

MS

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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Rhonda-mt » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:20 pm

I'm fine with the subscription idea (though a bit bemused by the amount, wouldn't rounding it up to $25 have been simpler?).

I had a slight problem with the member information form though.

Is "the language I'm comfortable with" meant to be filled in with a language I can read (in a score, at least) or one in which I might be expected to post? (Oops, if the former I forgot Italian. Silly me.)

Sallen112
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Sallen112 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:04 am

Rhonda-mt wrote:I'm fine with the subscription idea (though a bit bemused by the amount, wouldn't rounding it up to $25 have been simpler?).

I had a slight problem with the member information form though.

Is "the language I'm comfortable with" meant to be filled in with a language I can read (in a score, at least) or one in which I might be expected to post? (Oops, if the former I forgot Italian. Silly me.)


Is this when you are making an account on the main site? I think it is with the default language of the wiki that you choose that becomes enabled for you. For example my native language is English so I choose English as the main language I read on the site. On the main page, there is a vertical list of various language to choose from next to "Sharing the world's public domain music (in English

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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby LilyJAnderson » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:07 am

In addition to the short downloading "wait" time, which seems a little silly, I have also recently experienced other more serious difficulties with the downloads as well, that were not present in the past. I had suspected the conversion from "free" to "subscription" would eventually be coming - the inevitable profiteering from free labor of charitable contributors; too bad. It was a nice idea; perhaps will need to change from .org to .com I suppose, lol! This move can discourage many from future volunteering of their time and work for this site - by not scanning and posting, as this evolves into a for-profit business, obviously. It was a great idea - sorry to see it go this way. The good thing is, there are many libraries and academic institutions, with digital music collections already online (and free), that would love to have the content that so many have kindly posted here. And with a bit more potential to Remain freely available...

imslp
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby imslp » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:27 am

LilyJAnderson wrote:In addition to the short downloading "wait" time, which seems a little silly, I have also recently experienced other more serious difficulties with the downloads as well, that were not present in the past.


Do tell... this is news to me.

Boccaccio
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby Boccaccio » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:21 pm

Just a thought: Can I start creating a number of new accounts, upload a decent number of files, get a contributor membership and then sell those accounts on the black market? :twisted:

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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby mmacauley » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:33 pm

imslp wrote:
mmacauley wrote:As a long-time IMSLP user I would be glad to contribute towards server costs if the relevant information were made public. For example, what are the ongoing costs, how much has been donated and how much is stll needed towards certain targets. Despite the advice of your librarian contacts I have yet to be convinced of the need for a paid staff to maintain what remains (as I understand it) a wiki-based community archive. Maintaining and staffing a physical archive, it seems to me, would be a quite different matter.


This goes back to my point earlier actually. Sorry to be blunt, but why do you believe you have the standing to comment on the need for paid staff, when you haven't contributed a single edit?


Why? Because the need for paid staff is not self-evident, and because past contributors' statements to this effect seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Like many others, it seems, I clicked on this forum hoping to find transparent financial information which would support my wish to chip in money for a worthwhile cause. I am open to being convinced of the need for a paid staff, but I am not willing to accept it on blind faith.

Maybe you'll understand where many of us (even those with no edits to their name) are coming from if I reverse your question: Sorry to be blunt, but why do you believe you have the standing to ask IMSLP users to contribute not just to server costs but to a paid staff, when you've neither contributed information on what such a position would entail nor contributed a single solid argument that such a model is necessary or appropriate to what is widely perceived as a successful volunteer community effort?

imslp
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Re: Upcoming changes

Postby imslp » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:32 pm

Boccaccio wrote:Just a thought: Can I start creating a number of new accounts, upload a decent number of files, get a contributor membership and then sell those accounts on the black market? :twisted:


Be my guest, as long as they are nice files ;)


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