Regarding the new advertising

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imslp
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Postby imslp » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:33 pm

Unfortunately, we are bound by contract to not disclose what we get from Amazon... and so I'm actually going to have to remove it from my post above too. And so I don't think Amazon will want to tell you :/

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Postby ras1 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:58 am

Oops! I just wish the linked Amazon page were different in some small way to reflect/assure that we are supporting IMSLP with the purchase... Oh well.

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:32 am

Me too. :P

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Postby Carolus » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:26 am

Actually, if any of you regularly shop at Amazon - or have friends and relatives who do so - bookmark this page: http://astore.amazon.com/intemusiscorl-20/

This is the IMSLP @Amazon "aStore" that was set up as part of the associates program with Amazon.

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:52 am

That is very helpful, my new amazon page. :P

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:20 am

3 or 4 dollars coming IMSLP's way.

Another 5 coming in the future.

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Postby chamberpianist » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:14 am

I would like to contribute to IMSLP via Amazon buys, but since I live in Germany buying from Amazon US would cost me much more money for
postage than buying from Amazon Germany.

Is there any way using a non-US Amazon and still contribute to IMSLP by buying CD's (which I do often) ?

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Postby Josef » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:18 am

Dear Edward, respectively IMSLP board,

thank you for the good news that IMSLP will change from an informal non-profit organisation to an incorporated one. It will be a more solid ground especially for financial operations. Despite the fact that people won't have to click an Amazon link to get a score, IMSLP is running a business now, isn't it?

Therefore, my situation (as one of the living composers) on IMSLP has changed. I've uploaded my scores for free on condition of non-commercial usage. The ads make it commercial. How can we deal with that?

Removing the ads from my work pages?
Leaving the ads but changing the tracking ID into my own (I'm an Amazon affiliate, too)?

In general, I don't think it goes beyond the scope of what IMSLP was intended to be to provide ad sponsored sheet music (especially since the Amazon links are rather helpful as pointed out by Philip). While the ads could aid IMSLP for public domain scores, they could aid living composers for their own.

Josef
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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:30 am

The ads make it commercial.
It doesn't make it commercial unless you want to make it commercial.

Ads don't make IMSLP commercial.

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Postby Leonard Vertighel » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:32 pm

Allow me to state my personal opinion.

I'm not able to judge if, from a technical/legal point of view, Josef's objection is justified.

From a moral point of view however, I feel that it is deeply wrong. IMSLP is offering to composers free hosting of their compositions and visibility on a high-traffic website - for free. A small group of people have and are still investing significant amounts of money and a large portion of their lifetime in order to keep this free service available for everyone.

You are certainly aware that IMSLP was faced with legal threats, and that at that time the entire responsibility was resting essentially on one single person's shoulders, who incidentally was also paying all the costs for running IMSLP from his own pocket. IMSLP was incorporated in order to limit the individual liabilities, but, as was explained at the beginning of this thread, the incorporation itself also cost a considerable amount of money. Donations so far cover only a small part of the costs, and of the ever increasing monthly server bills. Therefore, advertising was introduced as a means to recoup at least some more of these costs.

Those who run IMSLP don't make money from it - quite the contrary: they still spend significant sums to run this service, not to mention the daily hours of unpaid work. I don't see on what grounds one could possibly expect those who run IMSLP to invest their money and time in order to provide composers with ad-free gratuitious hosting, and maybe even an income from advertising on top of that.

Note that I'm not one of those who run IMSLP. I just happen to do some maintenance work here every once in a while - for free.

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Postby emeraldimp » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:59 pm

Josef wrote:The ads make it commercial. How can we deal with that?

Removing the ads from my work pages?
Leaving the ads but changing the tracking ID into my own (I'm an Amazon affiliate, too)?


Or simply remove composers who feel that IMSLP is being commercial in this regard/object to the ads on their work pages.

I understand that ads weren't part of the deal when you uploaded, therefore I think the fairest response is to allow you to remove your works if you object.

As always, just my two cents.

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Postby imslp » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:03 pm

Speaking purely from a technical legal standpoint, the ads does not actually make the distribution of those files commercial. The non-commercial clause is directed specifically at the selling of the file itself. In other words, it is only commercial when we start charging a fee for the right to access the work in question.

Let me also state my opinion here. While I do indeed encourage the uploading of new music, my encouragement is more because I am a composer myself than because I'm running the IMSLP. I want to see contemporary music gain a larger audience, and that is why I'm offering what basically boils down to (if you use one of the more restrictive licenses) free advertising for your music. But everything deal has to have a balance; I do not exactly feel good when someone uses IMSLP for their own purposes, and then pull out whenever they feel like it. I will allow you to request the removal of your scores from IMSLP if you want, but next time please do note that according to the license and IMSLP's philosophy, what goes on IMSLP stays on IMSLP.

I apologize for the harsh words, but I think I needed to clarify the situation with new compositions. There will also be implements (hopefully soon) that will make sure contemporary composers do not misunderstand IMSLP's rationale behind the hosting of contemporary music, and after the implementation of which there will be no removing of scores, regardless.

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Postby Josef » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:24 pm

Speaking purely from a technical legal standpoint, the ads does not actually make the distribution of those files commercial. The non-commercial clause is directed specifically at the selling of the file itself. In other words, it is only commercial when we start charging a fee for the right to access the work in question.

No no, you see, it's not about charging a fee for files but earning money with them.

I can't help seeing a problem there.
(To the moral fraction. Does this make me a problem for IMSLP? My interest does not lie in being seen as a good or bad person but in IMSLP becoming as reliable as possible. Please kindly refrain from labeling me as one who can be proud to be accepted into the IMSLP church.)

To give an example for a better understanding of what I mean. There are sites like, let's say, last.fm which offers free streaming. It is ad sponsored, the income goes to the musicians, last.fm keeps a share for its services. Last.fm is no non-profit organisation, I know. But there is no difference to IMSLP regarding the need for money and starting a business therefore (besides the donation system). Couldn't it be done in a similar way? Despite of that, I will gladly use one of the links on the public domain work pages when buying at Amazon (that is, if there is a possibility to use amazon.de like chamberpianist). But I don't want to be, how shall I say it without disturbing any feelings, "exploited" neither by an European publishing house nor the saviour nor a non-profit organisation the way that I either agree to any terms or "may" (how kind) go.

Ah, now I've read the second part of Edward's post.
Well, how really sad. Then, please give me a day to save my texts from the work pages and the list of compositions.
I say good-bye and wish you all the best.

Josef

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:39 pm

No no, you see, it's not about charging a fee for files but earning money with them.
It is still isn't commercial.

But I don't want to be, how shall I say it without disturbing any feelings, "exploited" neither by an European publishing house nor the saviour nor a non-profit organisation the way that I either agree to any terms or "may" (how kind) go.
How is allowing free advertising for your pieces exploiting you? That doesn't really make much sense.

Please kindly refrain from labeling me as one who can be proud to be accepted into the IMSLP church.
Could you please explain what you are trying to say here?

But there is no difference to IMSLP regarding the need for money and starting a business therefore
I think you are over simplifying it, there are many large differences.

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Postby imslp » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:10 pm

The difference is that last.fm earns money; IMSLP spends more than it earns.

Also, if admins read this, you can remove Josef's works. The page-deleter is currently broken, but I will try to get it fixed right now.

P.S. Let's not fight about this anymore :) Peace to all.


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