Regarding the new advertising

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Carolus
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Postby Carolus » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:29 pm

Strictly speaking the item that presently appears on IMSLP is not an ad. The Amazon "associates" program (who I've dealt with before on other matters), does not actually pay you for placing links, but pays a small (usually less than 10%) commission on any items they actually sell to a visitor coming to their site from your website.

An actual advertisement is something one has far less control over in terms of the content. For example, I note that prices no longer appear on the links for Amazon. If these had been actual ads, Feldmahler would not have been able to remove that feature without violating the advertising agreement, which would result in all ads being pulled. While ads like Google AdSense can be targeted to specific areas, one ultimately has no control over what they choose to include - whether it's the latest Brittney Spears CD or the newest, hottest sports car.

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Postby Josef » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:38 pm

I have to answer this.

@Yagan
I might have been carried away a little bit, sorry for that. It's just, when instead of getting objective answers I get morals on me, I start feeling like being in church.

@Leonard
I hold my scores valuable enough to equal the services of hosting, providing a content management system, and legal advice. So I don't feel to have to pay on top of it. (This has nothing to do with the esteem I hold you, Feldmahler, the admins, or anyone working on the IMSLP project in, which is high. I'm also aware of the project's needs. That's why I am so stubborn :-) )

@Carolus
Thank you for the patient explanation. In fact, I know the Amazon associates program and how it works since I'm part of it myself. It's not the point in which form I pay for being on IMSLP but
1) that I do pay considering that without my works there would be no income for IMSLP from the links of the respective work pages (no matter if the income is guaranteed or just possible),
2) that I have to pay without any deal (there was no problem before IMSLP startet the current business model).

It's not that I begrudge IMSLP income (just the opposite) but it has to come in a 100% proper way.

Well, I didn't intend to keep you away too much from more important work driven by the love for music, or to become an annoyance, or feel to "pull out whenever I like" as Edward stated. It seems more like an experiment to me which finds its end now. Please keep up the good work, may there be as less little problems as one can be aware of.

@the admins. All my file names start with "JI_", might be useful when searching. Also, some of my files are linked to work pages of other composers (like Cadenzas for a Mozart Violin Concerto), shall I delete my entries on these pages myself? And I would like to keep my user page, maybe I can contribute some public domain sheets at least in the future.

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Postby imslp » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:01 pm

Thank you for your friendly post, but I just have to reiterate one thing here. I don't know how much you will believe me in saying this, but running IMSLP is not profitable. In fact, if I had spread out the gross income across all pages, you'd have to pay IMSLP. In other words, the gross income is negative. Of course, you may not believe me, and in which case, like I said in the letter, I do not ask you to.

But I need to thank you again for your amicable post, and indeed I would greatly welcome any public domain contribution you make in the future. I am very sorry that it has not worked out with your own compositions.

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Postby CameronMB » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:32 pm

I'm sorry, but I don't think there's anything wrong with Josef's request. He is not comfortable having his music associated with advertising even though he agrees with the basic goals of IMSLP. He has been polite and it was his contribution to the IMSLP in the first place that he now wants taken off. The advertising was not in place when he uploaded.

Yes, it's a two-way street, and having music here helps promote the work of the composer. But his oppositions are legally valid and morally not really opposable, either. While I don't have a problem with the ad links here, and am in fact glad they're here if they will continue to support IMSLP, I do have a problem with people who start preaching to him for not feeling comfortable with it in specific association with his own compositions here. It's not worth getting upset over; the situation changed, and he politely inquired what he could do about it.

Also, I think he's not using "commercial" in terms of saying that IMSLP is for-profit, but rather in a more general sense of purchasing, using an outside retailer, making money in some way even if it is going right back to IMSLP (although Amazon is certainly going to make money, too). This is just semantics, it's not something to be nitpicked over.

I don't say this so much to feldmahler, who is consistently gracious and responsive, even to me when I once questioned the necessity of IMSLP coming down - he was friendly and gave me good reasons, reasons that changed my opinion, when others only resorted to personal attacks.

I am saying this more to some of the others here who seem to think that any slight difference of opinion about IMSLP means the person who has it should be shouted down or at least treated with disdain. We all have our own perspectives, experience, and opinions, and as long as the OP is being polite there's no reason not to be 100% polite in return.

Leonard Vertighel
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Postby Leonard Vertighel » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:23 pm

CameronMB wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't think there's anything wrong with Josef's request. He is not comfortable having his music associated with advertising even though he agrees with the basic goals of IMSLP. He has been polite and it was his contribution to the IMSLP in the first place that he now wants taken off. The advertising was not in place when he uploaded.


That was not what he initially requested. In fact, if that had been the case, I would have had nothing to object. But frankly I do find it a bit inappropriate to suggest that IMSLP should provide him an income via his own advertising, when the project is offering him everything for free, and is struggling with a significant deficit in doing so. I'm not denying the value of his compositions; but very prosaically, this value doesn't pay the server bills nor all the other costs involved in running IMSLP.

CameronMB wrote:I am saying this more to some of the others here who seem to think that any slight difference of opinion about IMSLP means the person who has it should be shouted down or at least treated with disdain. We all have our own perspectives, experience, and opinions, and as long as the OP is being polite there's no reason not to be 100% polite in return.


I'm not aware of having shouted down anyone, and I apologize if it came across as such. But I stand by my point of view which I have reiterated above, and I believe everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion. Again, no "shouting down", disdain or impoliteness was intended.

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Postby CameronMB » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:35 pm

OK Leonard, fair enough. You were cool, I wasn't really talking about you. I guess I was just sensing some hostility over this and I am trying to say that I don't think Josef is being a bad guy, and that I sympathize with his position. Actually reading over the conversation it was a little bit less intense than my first impression. I probably didn't need to get involved. I think I was reacting more to past experiences than to present ones.

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Postby imslp » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:43 pm

CameronMB wrote:I guess I was just sensing some hostility over this and I am trying to say that I don't think Josef is being a bad guy


I absolutely agree :) We are already planning ways in which to make contemporary composers understand what is entailed by putting their compositions under a IMSLP permissible license, namely that the license cannot be revoked. I believe that this whole incident is a misunderstanding, and I don't want there to be fighting over this. I'll take peace over war any day 8)

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Postby emeraldimp » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:28 am

I just want to reiterate my stance on what the acceptable IMSLP licenses should be: CC-BY, CC-BY-SA. Potentially with performance exemption as needed, though not is preferred.

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Postby Rosuav » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:51 pm

Forgive me if this is beating a dead horse, but I'd like to post in support of the ads. This is the first time I've visited the IMSLP (Wikipedia directed me here), and while I acknowledge that banner, popup, and graphical ads can be very annoying (especially when, as is usual, they are completely unrelated to the page at hand), textual links to pay-for products that are related to the search at hand are quite useful. I'm here looking for music, so it's useless to advertise low-interest credit cards to me, but pointing me to Amazon is a helpful service. And if it then comes back to support the site I've just found helpful, double bonus!

Keep the ads. Keep the site free to access, because then you're providing a massive service to lots of people, and then fund it from ads and donations.

All the best.

Chris Angelico
aka Rosuav

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Re: Regarding the new advertising

Postby elizgoiri » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:25 am

Hi!
I'm new to IMSLP so I didn't even know the Amazon links were so controversial. They don't bother me at all, in fact, it's nice to have them when you're looking at music you don't know. Lots of times Amazon has those 1 minute snippets of each track, so you can see what they sound like. At least they're music related ads and not "lose weight with this simple trick" (which seems to be the only thing I see on the internet these days)
Ads or no ads, thanks a lot for this great site and all the time (&money) you've put into it!

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Re: Regarding the new advertising

Postby onesavvydude » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:28 am

I don't understand about 'Amazon ads'. Fact is, I can't get in at all. Ads would be fine, but this new 'Feature' has totally disabled the site.

When I go to imslp.org I got a popupus obscuratus that says I need to click on an ad to 'unlock' the site. I go to the page (the only option given) and there is a list of ads and I click on one.

nothing happens. click another. nothing happens.

This is all that imslp.org is now. Click and nothing happens.

Ads would be fine, but total destruction of all functionality is absurd. Someone please explain how this helps, when the entire site is now 100% useless.

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Re: Regarding the new advertising

Postby vinteuil » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:12 pm

onesavvydude wrote:I don't understand about 'Amazon ads'. Fact is, I can't get in at all. Ads would be fine, but this new 'Feature' has totally disabled the site.

When I go to imslp.org I got a popupus obscuratus that says I need to click on an ad to 'unlock' the site. I go to the page (the only option given) and there is a list of ads and I click on one.

nothing happens. click another. nothing happens.

This is all that imslp.org is now. Click and nothing happens.

Ads would be fine, but total destruction of all functionality is absurd. Someone please explain how this helps, when the entire site is now 100% useless.


What you are describing does not match my experience of IMSLP nor any proposed advertising on the site, as far as I can tell. Could you elaborate please? I've actually never really noticed an ad on this site.
Formerly known as "perlnerd666"

Melodia
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Re: Regarding the new advertising

Postby Melodia » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:53 pm

I would wager onesavvydude has some bad spyware.

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Re: Regarding the new advertising

Postby Starrmark » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:52 am

Let's start with the premises that (1) IMSLP has become central and indispensible to the functioning of the international world of Classical Music; and (2) that the world of Classical Music is a large and economically powerful entity when all its parts are added together. If IMSLP ever stopped again, there would now be enormous pressure from many quarters to start it up once more

I think the best solution to IMSLP's money woes is not membership fees, which will drive away a substantial portion of users, but rather informational advertising from many sectors of the world of Classical Music.

Many non-profit organizations run ads--including organizations with IRS granted tax-deductible status for contributions and donations. However, these ads are of an informational nature, rather than a commercial hard-sell. Public Broadcasting is a prime example. Just look at the News Hour five days a week. It includes videos about the work of many of the program's major sponsors. Contributions to PBS are still tax-deductible.

However, I am not suggesting that donations to IMSLP should necessarily be tax-deductible. Since IMSLP is based in Canada, and most of its users are in countries spread over the world, tax-deductibility would not be of much of an inducement to make donations. I think it will not make much difference to IMSLP's bottom line if it goes non-profit.

Nevertheless, these informational ads provide a tasteful model for the kind of musical ads that, I think, would be of interest to users of IMSLP, and welcomed by them. For further examples of what I mean, consult the musical ads in the Annual Directory Issue of Musical America. For such advertising to succeed, everything must be transparent: the number of people visiting each sector of the site, the number of downloads of each score and recording, and the financials.

Informational ads from musical organizations (such as music schools, orchestras, music libraries, recording companies, concert series, musical competitions, opera companies, public broadcasting and classical music websites and radio stations) and from individual musicians (instrumental soloists, singers, composers) could become an important source of valuable musical information about current musical events--as well as provide IMSLP with substantial income to cover operating expenses, salaries for a small staff, and future growth. Since Classical Music is primarily about the creative and performing activities of individuals, the ad rates for individuals should be kept low.

MS

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Re: Regarding the new advertising

Postby coulonnus » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:13 am

onesavvydude wrote:I don't understand about 'Amazon ads'. Fact is, I can't get in at all. Ads would be fine, but this new 'Feature' has totally disabled the site.

When I go to imslp.org I got a popupus obscuratus that says I need to click on an ad to 'unlock' the site. I go to the page (the only option given) and there is a list of ads and I click on one.

Probably you've typed ismlp instead of imslp. Pleeeaaase, close your browser immediately!


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