Second U-E cease and desist letter (new topic)

Archived threads.

Moderators: kcleung, Wiki Admins

steventanoto

Hi

Postby steventanoto » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:02 pm

Well, I can't say I have contributed much or I can contribute much to IMSLP at all. But I definitely had benefited from IMSLP greatly and I just want to thank you so much for making it happen for everyone who needed music.

So yeah, I know everyone has been saying that IMSLP is a great website, etc. But I just feel the need to say, THANKS! I hope you find ways to set it back on again.

=)

Steve
Aussieland

Funper
Copyright Reviewer
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:45 pm
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Sweden, Stockholm

Postby Funper » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:07 pm

no 2: just speculations, but the possibily would exist:

http://www.iaml.info/publications/newsl ... -NL-24.pdf

The issue of rights is tricky, in an international environment: some com-posers’ works are preceded by various warnings such as this one: “Works of this composer are most likely not public domain within the EU and in those countries where the copyright term is life+70 years. They may also be protected by copyright in the USA, unless published before 1923, in which case they are PD there as well. However, this composer's works are public domain in Canada (where IMSLP is hosted), and in other countries where the copyright term is life+50 years. IMSLP does not assume any sort of legal responsibility or liability for the consequences of downloading files that are not in the public domain in your country.”Yet this warning may not be sufficient to prevent them from being sued by rights owners in the countries where the worksare still protected, however. As an example, the works of Jacques Ibert (who died in 1962), of Francis Poulenc (d. 1963)and of Darius Milhaud (d. 1974), are still under copyright in France for quite a longtime (at least 50 years after the end of the year the composer died, and sometimes 70years, for war reasons).



Maybe it is practical to have a IP-filtering afterall. Ken Clark (the lawyer behind of the C&D letter) doesn't speak rubbish when he proposes such a system, since judging from his bio at Aird and Berlis, he was "a computer systems administrator" and "has a wide variety of technical knowledge and expertise."

Falkvinge
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:00 pm

Offer from the Swedish Pirate Party

Postby Falkvinge » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:15 pm

Hi,

this is Rick Falkvinge, chairman of the Swedish Pirate Party.

We caught word of this affair though our ever watchful community on copyfraud throughout the world. In this case, it appears that the copyright industry has determined how international law works in a different manner than the rest of the world, and has decided that a legal operation in Canada is illegal if it can be contacted from Europe where it would not be legal. This is, of course, totally bogus.

However, that doesn't help the plight of the operators who would be locked in an emotionally draining situation trying to prove they've done nothing wrong.

Therefore, I offer - on behalf of the Swedish Pirate Party - to take over hosting and the legal responsibility for the site. We would love to respond to these C&D letters in exactly the way they deserve, with an additional threat of legislation sprinkled in where appropriate.

This copyright mafia should be treated like the criminals that they are. Until we get to legislate exactly that, we're more than happy to help out in manners such as this.

I have three conditions:
- We'd like visible cred for hosting the site.
- All material hosted must be from composers dead before Jan 1, 1937 (as of today). This is non-negotiable as anything else would just be throwing money into the chests of our antagonists in cases we would not be able to win.
- (Added as afterthought:) Along the same lines, any printing copyrights need to be expired as well as per European law.

Please get back to me at rick.falkvinge@piratpartiet.se if this offer is interesting, and if so, what kind of server capacity is required. We have plenty to spare at the moment (heck, we've survived simultaneous Digg+Slashdots).

Rick

tommi28
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:46 pm

Postby tommi28 » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:58 pm

4. Life-plus-70 is no guarantee. As you can see from the list, there are no less than four composers listed in the C & D letter who have been dead for over 70 years. This could have been sheer stupidity and arrogance on UE's part, or these composers could still be protected in Austria by some sort of special provision in that country's copyright law.

==============

I am not a lawyer but as somebody who publishes papers I know a bit about copyright here in Austria. According to Austrian law, copyright splits into two aspects:

1) The copyright for the work which ends death of author + 70

2) The copyright for the printed music which is also print date + 70 years, except the work is out of print and not available in used form

In order to be legally stored in the database, a work has to fulfill following criteria:

1) composer died before 1937 AND

2) the source of the print was published before 1937.

metasj

Re: Offer from the Swedish Pirate Party

Postby metasj » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:06 pm

Falkvinge wrote:Hi,

this is Rick Falkvinge, chairman of the Swedish Pirate Party.

We caught word of this affair though our ever watchful community on copyfraud throughout the world...

Therefore, I offer - on behalf of the Swedish Pirate Party - to take over hosting and the legal responsibility for the site.

Please get back to me at rick.falkvinge@piratpartiet.se if this offer is interesting, and if so, what kind of server capacity is required. We have plenty to spare at the moment (heck, we've survived simultaneous Digg+Slashdots).

Rick


It is good to see such a generous offer. I am a longtime fan of IMSLP; performance art is beautiful and unifying, and its source materials should be freely available to inspire the entire world. I hope that none in this community think of abandoning the project.

SJ Klein

Buxtehude
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:58 pm
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Europe

Postby Buxtehude » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:25 pm

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but all the pieces listed in the UE list are sounding a little bit too familiar to my ears.

All, or almost all, the pieces which are under cross check in between IMSLP and UE are also into the catalogue of Dover publications, which has into its catalogue the same reproductions of the editions available in IMSLP.

Dover publications specifies that some titles are not available in some countries due to copyright issues: nevertheless I am able to go to a uncopyrighted country and buy the book.

There is really no sense backing this request, which is - IMHO - a good try to scare a single man which is not surrounded by law fortresses, as UE people are.

UE is obviously giving a strong and interesting contribution in order to publish new editions, which are surely better than the old ones, and obviously would like them to be torn away from the market: if a young student needs Mikrokosmos to start piano lessons, they would like him to by the UE book, and not the Dover one, which is cheaper. Maybe poorer in quality, but the notes are the right ones. And this, in the greatest majority of the cases, is enough.

But note one fact: many composers are now been reprinted by important european publishers (note, for example, the new Henle editions related to Guilmant and Boellmann). The old Durand/Leduc/etc books are still available, and he who buys can choose if have the old fashioned version or the new corrected and cured one. Bach complete works have been on the internet for ages and neither breitkopf/henle/baerenreiter complained. If you want you can also buy the "cdsheetmusic" version for a few dollars with all that stuff, and it is all legal.
Nobody never complained.

So why all this noise?
IMSLP does for free what other have been doing for money for 15 years up to now.
But if IMSLP must be closed, I want to see the Dover edition disappear and the CdSheetMusic company to close too.

I really hope IMSLP to get back online pretty soon. What IMSLP is perfectly legal, at least because there are other complanies doing it for money and not being persecuted by laws which can be made up according to the case.

If IMSPL needs my help, I can help in reviewing the copyright and checking on the catalogues if alternative versions are available on the market.

But please, restore the site: internet is the biggest culture spreading medium the humanity has ever had.
Closing a piece of genius like this site would be a total defeat in the battle of the people which have decided that only he who has money can be cultivated.

Regards.

Dietrich

kongming819
active poster
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:27 pm
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Contact:

Postby kongming819 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:55 am

I haven't been on IMSLP for some time and when I checked IMSLP recently, I found myself looking at plain text instead of the site that always cheers me up. I have been telling friends about IMSLP and how great it is, IMHO, it is the best music site I have ever set my eyes upon, and I am very very saddened by the news of its shut-down because of this very controversial issue.
I can do nothing in this other than provide a little bit of support in the form of a forum post.
IMSLP MUST CONTINUE TO EXIST!!!!!
Therefore, I urge any who can help to do so!
Humanity needs IMSLP!
I thank those who are already helping.

Vivaldi
active poster
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:54 pm
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Malaysia

Postby Vivaldi » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 am

Boxtehude, you're being unfair to Dover. Although they offer the same thing as IMSLP which are public domain scores, they sold the scores at a price to cover printing, binding as well as the raw material costs. If you download music from IMSLP, wouldn't you have to spend some cash printing and binding them together? All which takes a while?

Buxtehude
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:58 pm
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Europe

Postby Buxtehude » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:54 am

VIvaldi, I think you didn't got the message.

I have the highest respect for Dover.

Dover offers a plusvalue with respect to imslp and so they want some money to cover the extra expenses (print, etc) and this is clear and logical.

What I mean is that Dover offer the same material that is available on imslp. and nobody went to Dover and asked her to close as far as I know.

So If the same edition has been available in all the music books for years, at a price muuuuuch lower than the one of UE, why did not UE go to Dover asking her to cease the activity?

Imslp should then be regarded as an "online dover" by UE.

UE should then show people that their "new editions" are better than the old eastern ones, so that people can know the difference and choose one edition or the other. This should happen in a correct world.

Regards.

Dietrich

Vivaldi
active poster
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:54 pm
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Malaysia

Postby Vivaldi » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:22 am

Ah, I see your point. Forgive me.

chum
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:49 am
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Contact:

Postby chum » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:37 am

what about pirate-party.us? (the USA version of the swedish pirate party)
maybe you could ask them about hosting and stuff since a lot of the copyright conflict stuff involves the US.
shostakovich and bartok pwn u in teh face
[love]cello[/love]

richmark
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:55 am
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot

with dismay and sincere thanks

Postby richmark » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:14 am

I am so sorry that the circumstances have transpired as such; I loved visiting the site to view some of the more obscure composers and use the scores when listening to recordings or attempting something new.
It is outrageous behaviour of a music publisher to do this- I personally accessed work that has been unobtainable by regular retail methods of in the instance of living in Australia, logistically a nightmare to order and exorbitant pricewise. If I want mainstream repertoire, I am happy to pay for it but the beauty of the site was it's unique capacity to celebrate the lesser known and make what should be available to anyone a pleasant reality.
Like many message posters, I will actively boycott Universal Editions in any future purchases.
To all concerned in this wonderful resource- sincere thanks from one who loved to wander the lists and use the related links to learn more.
Thanks you most sincerely for allowing the journey
music is a living form-keep it going however you can

Josef
regular poster
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:58 am
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: Germany
Contact:

No need to hate the disease

Postby Josef » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:03 pm

I would like to express my gratitude to Feldmahler and the staff for hosting my works on IMSLP and for having bothered themselves so elaboratively with my special legal situation back then.

UE's letter seems to be the inevitable virus needed to trigger a disease that leads to a transformation into another form of being. Feldmahler's reaction to confine the project to bed and allowing no visitors was indeed far-seeing. It reduces the project's and all its visitors' suffering to a minimum. There's no doubt this measure will succeed and we'll be able to see a recovered IMSLP.

I wish you all the strength you need for the coming proceedings.

Yours,
Josef Irgmaier

cvp
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:37 pm

Postby cvp » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:38 pm

Universal Edition, Inc.
254 West 31st Street, Floor 15
New York, NY 10001-2813
USA
Tel. +1 212 461-6953
Fax +1 212 810-4565

ueinc@universaledition.com

Florian Hruschka, President

HonkyTonk
regular poster
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:36 am
notabot: YES
notabot2: Bot
Location: UK

Postby HonkyTonk » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 pm

I have only just learned of this matter and am very sorry to hear about the site's demise.
I am extremely puzzled by the fact that Universal Edition has acted in this way towards a non-profit making organisation whilst, at the same time, Everynote.com., a commercial concern, is still able to offer works by Bartok, Berg, Friedman and other composers named in the Cease and Desist letter, to customers without issuing, as far as I can gather, any warning concerning the copyright status of the composers in question.
I hope that the IMSLP site will be resurrected as it has provided a very valuable source for musicians of many obscure composers whose works are not affected by copyright issues.


Return to “Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest