Complete Tosti songs from Ricordi

[haydenmuhl]

I found a fourteen volume set of Tosti's complete songs at the library. Here's the catalog listing.

http://oskicat.berkeley.edu/record=b11009034~S61

Any clue whether this is PD? There are pages of music interspersed with pages of translations and notes. It looks like all the actual sheetmusic is photographic reprints from previous editions.

The notes and translations look like new text, but are on completely separate pages.

Any word on the copyright status of this? Is there more information I can gather to help make a call one way or the other?

[Carolus]

It's a 1992 critical edition, apparently. This is too new to be posted even under the 25-year rule we use for critical editions. However, if they are actual reprints of earlier, PD editions, the only thing under copyright are original contributions by an editor or translator. I could not actually view any of these online, BTW.

[haydenmuhl]

Reading up on the PD FAQs, things like replacing titles usually don't constitute significant enough contributions to secure a new copyright. I'm certain the accompanying texts would be under copyright. Is there any kind of research I can do to help find out the original source(s) of the sheet music?

Unfortunately, Ricordi seems to have replaced any original plate numbers that may have existed.

[Carolus]

I saw the newer plate numbers referenced, which made wonder if they had re-engraved everything. The vast majority of Tosti's work was published in his lifetime - but by several different publishers. You would have to do a comparison between the Ricordi print and the original edition to see if they merely reprinted the older score - as has been done with the Reger edition, selected items in the Mahler edition, etc. Simply placing new titles, page numbers, measure numbers and the like on a reprint of some public domain score does not confer copyright.

[haydenmuhl]

I'm almost certain it has not been re-engraved. Besides the look and feel of older engravings, it has all the hallmarks of a reprint. There are gaps in some of the thinner parts of letters (tops and bottoms of c, s, e, etc.). Here's an example of what I'm talking about.



This is not from the Tosti score, but demonstrates what I'm talking about. These types of flaws would not exist in an engraving as recent as 1992.

I doubt my gut feelings on the matter are sufficient to make a judgement, and if I had known PD scores to compare against, I would just scan those. What can I do, short of getting a list of sources from Ricordi? Would it be helpful for me to scan one song and upload it for review? Or maybe send the first page of one song by email?

[Carolus]

From your nice detailed description it would appear that Ricordi simply earlier scores. If so, the only thing under copyright would be any items of an original nature added by an editor, or new text added by a translator. Correcting errors or adding items from other public domain sources does not qualify. It's OK to upload them provided you remove any new material and cite in detail the original item which has been reprinted (City: Publisher Name, date. Plate number.)

[haydenmuhl]

There's an appendix that looks like it has information on the original edition of each song. My Italian isn't that great, but I can make some guesses at what it means. Here's some of the information for "Vorrei".

Frontespizio: G. Ricordi & C./Milano
Numeri di catalogo: 50314, 50315, 50316
Data di stampa: 3 Marzo 90

I take that to mean published in Milan by Ricordi, plate numbers 50314, 50315, 50316, original copyright March 3, 1890.

Two songs don't have explicit publication information the way the other songs do. It looks like they may have been published in periodicals of some kind ("Capitan Fracassa" and "Cronaca bizantina"). There are dates, but no formal publisher information like plate numbers. How should those be handled?

Edit: Actually, I think I'm wrong about the plate numbers. Those are catalog numbers for different transpositions of the same song. Information from the title page (frontespizio) lists a high, medium and low key. Those probably correspond to the three different catalog numbers. It doesn't look like there's any information on plate numbers.

Edit: Looking at the Ricordi page on IMSLP, maybe those are plate numbers after all.

Vorrei has plate number 50314, which would correspond to 1885. The year 1885 is printed in the title of the sheet music. Strange that the appendix lists it as '90.

[Carolus]

Looks like you've proved previous publication, so now we're down to the question of what has been added by the editor. Since they did not even bother to re-engrave these, my bet is very little if anything. In other words, the 1992 copyright claim covers the collection - the volume with the preface, the editor's notes, etc. As for citing the original publication and date in the publisher field, I would use the 1890 date as it is more reliable than guessing by plate number. The plate numbers 50314-50316 may have been assigned to the works by Ricordi in 1885, but they probably didn't appear until 1890 (this is fairly common with Ricordi, actually). As for the 2 other songs, simply use the name of the periodical (with city if known) - like Milan: Capitan Fracassa, 1888. (put the periodical name in italics). Unless there is some new material added by the editor, I see no reason these cannot be uploaded.

[haydenmuhl]

I'm working my way through volume one. As I work my way through the rest of the volumes, is there anything I should keep an eye out for that would mean a score is still copyrighted?

He died in 1916, which means anything he wrote would be public domain in Canada and the EU. I imagine nearly everything he wrote was published in his lifetime, pre-1923, so it would be public domain in the US.

[Carolus]

Yes, that's basically it. For determination of US status, the publication date is always date of first publication, so renewal dates and dates of reprints don't count.

[haydenmuhl]

But each of these songs is from a different original edition. I know enough that if the original was published in 1900 it will be PD most everywhere. What if one of these is a reprint from a 1950 edition? What about 1990?

This is a critical edition, so new typesets would probably not be PD, but is that a hard and fast rule, or are there circumstances where I would be able to upload these, too?

[Carolus]

As you mentioned earlier, the vast majority of Tosti's output was published in his lifetime. Date of reprint is irrelevant to copyright status. The only way a 1950 or 1990 edition would be under copyright would be if there was an editorial claim and credit accompanied by a copyright claim on the editorship. If a song from a 1950 volume has no specific editorial claim, any copyright claim is for the collection (or compilation) as a whole. While it is true that a new and original compilation of public domain items can be under copyright - as a new compilation - the individual public domain items within are still public domain. A song of Tosti's first published in the 1880s cannot be protected unless an editor has added new material. Generally speaking, you should avoid the new typesets. Items with editorial additions are more likely to be re-typeset than simple reprints (though there are exceptions).

The only instance where you can upload a new typeset would be 1) there is absolutely no material added to the old, public domain score; and 2) it is more than 25 years old. We voluntarily observe a 25-year rule on typesets. The exception are typesets from the old USSR and other Soviet-bloc countries with State-run publishing houses, where editions issued up to 1990 can be uploaded provided there are no copyright notices, etc.

[haydenmuhl]

I've got volume 2 of the complete songs. All songs are reprints except for one, L'augurrio. The notes say that this song is previously unpublished and was first published in this volume in 1991. Written circa 1860. No word on performances.

My best guess per the Public Domain page on the wiki, this song is copyrighted until 2049 in the US, until 2041 in Canada and PD in the EU. No upload until 2016, per the 25 year rule on new typesets, and only then in the EU.

[Carolus]

You're guess would appear to be correct. If you can document a performance more than 50 years ago, it will be free in Canada in 2016 also.

[haydenmuhl]

I have a copy of Ideale in the key of A which I got from a friend for a performance. It is not from the complete works that I am currently scanning and uploading. The score is identical to the version in G currently on the wiki, but transposed.

The only difficulty is that it has a 2002 copyright printed on it. I believe it is from this book. I very much doubt that this is a new typeset, and that the copyright is for the collection, not the individual scores. Can someone confirm?