Mahler, Overrated?

[Deinonychus]

mea culpa, I missed that one in the depth of this thread. As for me, I think my favourite moments in the Symphony would have to be the opening of the 3rd movement (I love the way the timpani and strings play of each other) and the 2nd Nachtmusik.

By the way, a Deinonychus is a type of Dinosaur. Its name is Greek for terrible claw

[tickle88]

One last musical coincidence: Listen to the Israeli national anthem, Hatikvah, and then to the main theme of The Moldau (Vltava) by Smetana. This similarity, of course, has been pointed out at least a million times. It's included in most program notes to the tone poem. But here's one I haven't seen mentioned: listen to the minor key variation in Mozart's Variations on Ah, vous dirais-je Maman (K. 265, aka variations on Twinkle,twinkle, little star--available here, of course). Clearly Mozart stole this from Smetana. ;<)

[SeanMartin]

Gads, I feel like I'm joining the party late.

Thing is, *every* composer has his or her share of clunkers, those musical skeletons rattling around in the storage closet, but I think we all know that, right? And it also depends on the execution of the music: if I have to listen to one more poorly conducted 1812 Overture that races through everything just so it can get to the Jly4th fireworks, I'm gonna scream... and it wont be pretty, trust me.

But Mahler? Brahms? You might as well be talking the difference between a grunge rocker and an emo kid. Beethoven as the overly orchestrated 80s sound, and Mozart as the hippie-dippie acoustic lovechild of the 60s. And dont get me started on the techno-dance music that is Tchaikovsky.

[allegroamabile]

I was just wondering if Carl Maria von Weber would be placed in the "Wagnerian" camp since Wagner did adore him and borrow many things from his music. Just listen to the Overture to Euryanthe and its rich and triumphant Wagnerian sound (Beethoven was at the premiere). It was written when Wagner was 10 or so and Beethoven was composing at the same time his grand but not so innovative Missa Solemnis. Weber needs to be get more credit for being truly innovative. He would be the first "fully" Romantic composer if it weren't for Louis Spohr who was born two years earlier than Weber (I still believe Beethoven is Romantic though). Spohr also needs more recognition for being one of the founders of the Romantic period.

[steltz]

[quote="allegroamabile"]I was just wondering if Carl Maria von Weber would be placed in the "Wagnerian" camp since Wagner did adore him and borrow many things from his music. . . . . . . Weber needs to be get more credit for being truly innovative. He would be the first "fully" Romantic composer if it weren't for Louis Spohr who was born two years earlier than Weber (I still believe Beethoven is Romantic though). Spohr also needs more recognition for being one of the founders of the Romantic period.[quote]

Sorry, but I'm questioning your college history courses a little here. Weber is called the "father of German Romantic opera", and in other articles I've seen him heralded for his role as a father figure in Romanticism generally. So I think he has the credit, despite the fact that his operas aren't done all that often these days.

I also have never heard Spohr called Classical -- though I have always known him as a bridging composer, like Beethoven. And there are many articles that talk about his role (along with Weber) in the development of Romaticism. In fact, I was surprised to find his duets classified as Classical on IMSLP, though they do have early opus numbers. And on his composer page he is classified as Romantic. So again, I think the recognition is already there.

In the history classes I took (though not so recent), neither one was treated as Classical.

As far as being 'Wagnerian', one definition would be "a follower of, or an admirer of", so Weber can't be Wagnerian based on that.

The other definition would be "similar to", and the criteria for being Wagnerian, as I understand them, would be wandering harmonies that can stay away from tonic for a very long time, huge orchestrations (compared to Freischutz at double woodwinds), operas of great length (longer than 4 hours would be my cut off -- Aida with no cuts is about that), and Weber doesn't qualify based on those 3. Though Weber, in his role as father of German Romantic opera, undeniably paved the way for Wagner, he can't IMO be considered Wagnerian.

[Yagan Kiely]

(I still believe Beethoven is Romantic though).

Agreed! His 'classical' works are poor classical pieces, and it didn't seem like he cared for the style all that much anyway. Most of his memorable pieces are Symphony 3 and later (almost), which is when he ditched to 'Classical' style for the birth of Romanticism. Notwithstanding, Mozart and Haydn were beginning to pave the direction themselves. So effectively (based on my subjective (but partly objective) reasoning) Beethoven's romantic.

[allegroamabile]

Sorry, but I'm questioning your college history courses a little here.

Please don't take me out of context. I didn't say Weber should be recognized for being one of the founders of the Romantic school, and said he should be admired more for his innovation. If you re-read my post carefully you should realize that. I also was not saying that Spohr does not get recognition for being a Romantic composer. He does indeed. I clearly knew that before I wrote that post. I said he should be praised more for being one of the founders of the Romantic period. I take my knowledge of musical history very seriously so please don't trash it.

I also have never taken a college music history course because I have not gone to college yet. If you read my post about The Curtis Institute you would clearly understand that. I learn music history from reading articles about it because it gives me pleasure, not because a professor who does even know who I am told me to so I could pass a class.

As for the Wagnerian incident (if you noticed, I put quotation marks around Wagnerian), I was asking if Weber would be pertaining more to the Wagnerian style rather than the Brahms/Beethoven school. If you also re-read my post cautiously, you would see that I clearly did not describe Weber for being a Wagnerite.

[steltz]

If someone is the 'founder' of something, he is by definition innovative. My point is that these two composers do get recognition for what you seem to think they don't get recognition for.

As to Weber/Wagner, however you word it, for the reasons I cited, I don't believe he "pertains" to, or could be placed in, the Wagnerian camp.

[allegroamabile]

Alla tickle88, I have noticed that the beginning of the last movements of Bruch's Scottish Fantasy and Brahms's Violin Concerto are very similar. Has anybody noticed that?

[allegroamabile]

I'm pretty sure there are a few racist US composers.

Yeah, I heard Elliott Carter and John Cage had connections with the KKK during the 50's and 60's.

just kidding

[tickle88]

One more comment on a comment, which I forgot to do earlier because I am an O.F. Yagan Kiely mentioned Glenn Gould's statement that Mozart "died too old". My purely personal belief is that Gould said this just to be annoying. On the other hand, I have heard (once--that was enough) his recording of the C minor Concerto, K491. I had not previously realized that it was possible to make Mozart ugly.
Here's a Gould story, from friends who were at Indiana U. in the '60's. Two of the soloists at a festival there were Gould and John Williams, the guitarist. After Gould's performance, Williams came up to the pianist backstage, put out his hand, and said, "Good performane." Gould pulled his hands to his chest and replied, "I don't shake hands. I never shake hands." Williams lowered his own hand and said, "A good performance...but not a great performance," and walked away.
By the way, as an avid student and lover of languages, and especially etymology and onomastics, I am totally baffled by Yagan Kiely, that is, the name as such. Any clarification possible?

[allegroamabile]

By the way, as an avid student and lover of languages, and especially etymology and onomastics, I am totally baffled by Yagan Kiely, that is, the name as such. Any clarification possible?

I don't understand. Kiely is an Irish surname if that is what you are trying to ask and Yagan was an native Australian warrior who fought against the British during colonial settlement.

[tickle88]

Thank you! I didn't recognize either one. My bad.

[allegroamabile]

I'm also a lover of etomology, languages, and origins of last names.

[Yagan Kiely]

Yeah, I heard Elliott Carter and John Cage had connections with the KKK during the 50's and 60's.

Actually, many serialist composers (and university lecturers) had connections with the CIA. The CIA wanted serialism to prove that the US is more 'free' than the the Soviet Union, so they promoted serialism and installed serialist friendly lecturers in universities. Alex Ross's book is the sauce.

at Gould said this just to be annoying.

I would agree with that.

I don't understand. Kiely is an Irish surname if that is what you are trying to ask and Yagan was an native Australian warrior who fought against the British during colonial settlement.

Correct*, but neither of which I have any blood relation to. I have Denmark on my dad's side (Meyers is my middle name - from dad), and my mums real name is Smith. (also have Scottish in me). Quite confused really.

*I believe Kiely is the Anglicized version, (the real version has an O a J and fifty other consonants stuffed together). Yagan (the aborigine) has an interesting history actually.