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Suppose you have a score that calls for 4 bassoons, but a)Never divs in more than 2, and b)Doesn't specify which chair is playing top and bottom. What organisation for chairs would be normal, 1,3 High Bassoons like horns, or 1,2 High; its a bit of a strange question i know, but im curious

We woodwinds don't divide high 1&3, low 2&4 like horns do. 4 bassoons will go 1 (highest), 2 (next highest), 3 (2nd from the bottom), 4 (lowest). If they are 4 bassoons playing 2 parts, the 1st and 2nd will play the top part, and 3rd and 4th will play the bottom part.

Thankyee, i play 1st Clarinet, occasionally E-flat, so i dont have the same problem...Though 4 E-flat clarinets is an interesting, if somewhat painful idea * Evil grin *

A sort of related question to any bassoonists out there, wit regard to tenor/bass clef; is there a standard preference for bass clef, or would you usually prefer that which minimises ledger lines. Since im working on a piece which hovers around A3, and I tend to stick with tenor clef unless the part goes below C3.

I'm a singer and musicologist, so I can read pretty any clef and key combination that's thrown at me, but from personal experience that is an unusual talent. There's nothing quite like watching people's faces crinkle in confusion when you hand them an obscure baroque score where the violin parts are in G1 clefs, or the viola parts are in C1, C2 or C4 rather than C3, and the choir parts likewise in various C clefs: it tends to sort out the sheep from the goats in terms of sight readers!

One rule of thumb (for cellos and tenor trombones, as well as bassoons) is that amateur players will always tend to prefer their normal clef, in this case the bass clef, no matter how many ledger lines are required. Pros will prefer a bit of consistency and logic in terms of clef changes, so the fewer changes are better; and clef changes between phrases are better than a change right in the middle.

My 2¢... regards PML

Since no bassoonists have answered, I'll put my 2 cents in too.

Alhough pros (and college students, too), are expected to know tenor clef, one problem I've found is that people who write in these clefs, don't often think about where to change from the one to the other. For instance, in the middle of a fast run is not a good place. I know that in the end, we more or less memorize runs, but everything is still more secure when the visual contour looks like what the thing is going to sound like. If it looks like there's a leap in the middle of the run, there can be a tiny hesitation as the brain works out that there is no leap, just a clef change.

Same with page turns and clef changes.

Staying in one clef also has problems. When I'm spacing scores in Finale, I frequently find that I can't get staves closer together if one of them has zillions of ledger lines. (This can conflict with the run scenario, so a choice has to be made for the specific situation.)

On a personal note, as a teacher (although of clarinet), I think that once a student is reaching the high range of their instrument, whether bassoon or trombone, it's just time to learn the other clef, and I'm not that sympathetic to students who want to learn more advanced technique but want to stay in an intermediate comfort zone in terms of reading.

So my attitude in writing music (I do some arranging and compositions) is that unless it's for high school students, use the tenor clef in addition to bass clef, but use it wisely.

Well said Mr. Steltz. I hadn't touched on the issues of partwriting and where clef changes occur - page turns are bad because the change can easily be lost to the eye. One anomaly in Varnis' post I hadn't noticed earlier: if the bassoon part is mostly around "A3" then it should be in the BASS clef! A3 is usually taken by most typesetting software and pitch standards as being equivalent to 220 Hz, i.e. the A below middle C. I suspect Varnis' post should have read "hovers around A4", which is tenor clef territory - and which also implies some of the time the part might be above A4 in pitch, and makes me feel very sorry for the poor bassoonist who'll be playing at the very top of his or her register most of the time. Perhaps people have a view on parts which appear to be better suited to a different instrument, and thus seem to have been given to the "wrong" instrument in order to frustrate or upset the player?

Regards PML :-)

Reminds me of the words to the bassoon solo in Rite of Spring - "I'm not an English Horn, this part's too high for me, I'm not an English Horn" (coordinate the "high" for the highest note of the passage).

(That being said, it is impressive in that range, and it doesn't stay there all the time . . . . . and, of course, the French bassoons play more easily in that range . . .)

I believe I did mean A3, ie the A below middle C, but in the passage in queston it was essentially 2 implied melodies, one pushing E-F4, and the other down between G and A3, so the choice of Bass/Tenor seemed unclear at that point, either way ledger lines seemed likely, but fewer with tenor clef * Scratches head * I'm convinced the original copyist liked drawing clefs, theyre festooned over the bassoon staves like tinsel on a christmas tree

In tenor clef, the G and A below middle C are still within the staff, so if the phrase goes up to F above middle C, then tenor is your choice here. You only need to go back to bass if the majority of the phrase is below middle C (one ledger line isn't really an issue). Actually, I've seen a lot of music that stays in bass clef up to the second ledger line, and only switches if there are a fair amount of notes above that.