Urtext and photocopying

LazyAngel · Post by **LazyAngel** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:59 am

Hi there,
I'm new to all of this and trying to get my head around the copyright of a piece. I'm in Australia - I don't know if that makes any difference or not

I want to photocopy/download music. I know that for it to be eligible (I have been in contact with APRA) the composer has to be dead for 70, plus the publication must be more than 25 years old (according to APRA).

I was then told by a composer that Urtext books may be the way to go to photocopy music without a problem. He said that 'Urtext is the original, as the composer wrote it' and therefore any composers I'd be dealing with (long dead) should be fine to photocopy because it isn't an arrangement.

I'm a bit skeptical on this - can someone please clarify for me? And I thank you in advance for your patience

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:25 am

Basically is differs from Urtext to Urtext. Sometimes an editor does have a lot to do with he end product, sometimes not. They can (and I'd believe, mostly) in copyright because of the editor - regardless of the composer.

Urtext can be the original, but sometimes the original manuscript isn't available. What this means is that the editor has to piece together what is likely to be closest to the original as possible, this is done through close study of various early publications. However, sometimes the manuscript is available, and the editor will just notate that. Whether or whether not that is considered copyright in Australia, I'm not sure. Though, it is copyrightable in EU I believe.

APRA is lying through omission. Copyright in Australia is 70 years yes, BUT the law was only introduced recently (2005) and wasn't made retro active this means that composers who died before 1955 are out of copyright, but composers born 1955 are later come under the 70 year law meaning the won't become PD until 2025.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_ ... _Australia

LazyAngel · Post by **LazyAngel** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:09 am

Thank you for your speedy reply. This is still surrounded by confusion for me, unfortunately.
Say, I want to photocopy/download my pieces which I wish to play for my AMEB exam...it does state in the front that you can use photocopied/downloaded music as long as you have all the correct permissions/it is PD. How can I work out which ones I can photocopy? Is there a list somewhere or something?....doubtful

Thank you

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:49 am

Could you list the composer (Librettist?), editor, publisher, dates and any numbers on the piece? Otherwise it is impossible to tell.

LazyAngel · Post by **LazyAngel** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:31 am

Well, that's the thing. I'm not sure which pieces I would need.
So it really is on a piece by piece basis? No one can say "All of Mozart pieces are public domain", for example?

How does editor and publisher change things? I'm trying to get a clearer view, thank you very much

ras1 · Post by **ras1** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:55 am

*EDIT - DELETED*

aldona · Post by **aldona** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:56 am

Don't worry, you'll soon get the hang of it - I'm still learning.

Copyright law is confusing enough when considered one nation at a time, and even more so when more than one country's laws come into the equation.

The composer (and how long he/she has been deceased for) is only one factor. You also have to consider:

- Who is the editor? Is he/she still under copyright? (different laws for urtext, but urtext may still have a named editor.) Google his/her name and see what you come up with.
- What country is the piece published in? (Is is in the public domain in the country of origin?)
- What year was the piece first published? (I have just aquired a copy of a Schubert (1797-1828) song which was lost, re-surfaced as a manuscript in the estate of a deceased antiques dealer in 1991, and was first published in Germany in 1999, edited by a person who is contemporary and very much alive. Even though Schubert (as the composer) is long since PD, this particular piece will not be for quite some time to come.

)

There are many other things to consider. If you try to find out as much information as you can about one piece at a time, you will be amazed how quickly you will learn and soon you will be able to look at a piece and say "that's still under copyright" or "that's PD here, but not in country X".

I still think, however, that it would be nice if IMSLP was hosted in Afghanistan. (No copyright laws at all there.)

Aldona

ras1 · Post by **ras1** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:02 am

Essentially, LazyAngel, the problem is that a specific edition may be significantly different from the original manuscript. So, the edition is copyright, not the actual piece. The copyright rules in this case apply to the editor in the same way they normally would to a composer.

This is why a new edition of a Mozart work may not be in the public domain. The same applies to lyricists, arrangers, etc.

LazyAngel · Post by **LazyAngel** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:18 am

I think I am slowly beginning to understand. I was hoping to be able to get a bit of a sweeping idea as to the percentage of copy-able pieces but as you have put it, there are just so many considerations on every piece and what edition it is.

For instance, I have a Schubert book at home that was published somewhere before 1914 (because there is one of those "To so-and-so, hope you enjoy this, Love so-and-so, 1914). How does the copyright stand here?

Can we try another example? I have just opened the AMEB Music Syllabus to a relatively random page and will choose a couple of pieces, without and without the names in brackets behind. F'rinstance:
Bach, J.S. Chromatic Fantastia and Fugue, BWV 903.
Stravinsky, I. Piano Rag Music 1919 (Chester).
HyDe, M. Study in Blue, White and Gold from Piano Works of Miriam Hyde (All Music Publishing).

I'd guess that Stravinsky and Hyde are definitely unphotocopy-able/downloadable, but the Bach would require further investigation?

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:52 am

[q]I still think, however, that it would be nice if IMSLP was hosted in Afghanistan. (No copyright laws at all there.) Wink [/q]hehe. :p

[q]For instance, I have a Schubert book at home that was published somewhere before 1914 (because there is one of those "To so-and-so, hope you enjoy this, Love so-and-so, 1914). How does the copyright stand here? [/q]It is likely that it is PD, but if you supply any names, and umber and dates from the first page of the book to the beginning of the piece. Basically, I can't tell unless you supply the details. Maybe you could scan the first few pages (including the first page of the piece), I could highlight the the places you need to supply. Or someone else could do this with a scan of there own.

LazyAngel · Post by **LazyAngel** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:03 am

1) I will try to scan some of the book tomorrow so I can show you. I was just having a bit of a look around the public domain sites - do they painstakingly go through each piece and edition and then put them up on the web?

2) My AMEB syllabus doesn't give a lot of information about each piece, really only the suggested (and apparently it is only a suggestion?) edition/arranger.

3) *And* what if, instead of scanning or photocopying a piece of music, I typed it out again using some form of notation software (I have my preference haha). If it is public domain, can I do this (for non-profit)?

4) If a piece is still under Copyright, how does one go about paying for permission? And does this only entitle the one copy of the music? I am now trying to get my head around all of these public domain sites I have just come across, as well as the ones where you have to pay a few dollars for a download.
http://www.google.com/Top/Arts/Music/Re ... ic_Domain/

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:19 am

do they painstakingly go through each piece and edition and then put them up on the web?

Yes, IMSLP has done so for 16,000+ scores. And is doing so again in the review to get it back up.

*And* what if, instead of scanning or photocopying a piece of music, I typed it out again using some form of notation software (I have my preference haha). If it is public domain, can I do this (for non-profit)?

As long as the music is PD (i.e. the composer died a required amount of time ago) you can re-notate it. Yes you can do that, you can even do it for profit.

If a piece is still under Copyright, how does one go about paying for permission? And does this only entitle the one copy of the music?

Generally, they won't allow you to photocopy it. You can only purchase the bound copy.

aldona · Post by **aldona** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:43 pm

Yagan Kiely wrote:
do they painstakingly go through each piece and edition and then put them up on the web?
Yes, IMSLP has done so for 16,000+ scores. And is doing so again in the review to get it back up.

Think of it this way...the hard working copyright reviewers (not me, I'm still learning!!) are doing all the hard work for you so that once IMSLP is back up, you can download with confidence and know that the scores featured on the website are PD and you are not breaking the law.

If a particular piece is not PD in a particular country, there will be a warning so if you follow the instructions on the piece's web page, you should be fine. (hint: Australia follows a "+70" copyright law, broadly similar to the EU, so if in doubt check that the work is PD in the EU.)

Once IMSLP is up, you will probably need to do all that exhaustive research yourself if you have a piece of music you want to contribute. And even then, if you inadvertently upload something that is still under copyright, the wise and all-knowing copyright reviewers are there as a back-up and can delete it (and let you know why) so nobody gets in trouble.

3 weeks to go...

Aldona

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:30 pm

When downloading from IMSLP or recognised PD websites, just check the date of the composer, and if:

* Any work that was published in the lifetime of the author who died in 1956 or earlier, is out of copyright.
* Any work that was published in the lifetime of the author who died after 1956, will be out of copyright seventy (70) years after the author's death.

Then the likeliness is still very high that it is PD here in Australia. If ever in doubt, just give us the necessary information, and we will tell you. If you do get the scan, I will show you the areas of the piece you need to take not of for copyright.

(hint: Australia follows a "+70" copyright law, broadly similar to the EU, so if in doubt check that the work is PD in the EU.)

We must exploit the non retroactive nature of the law! For example, Richard Strauss is PD in Australia but not EU. Some of his pieces are PD in the US however.