"Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

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"Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby copyrighted » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:07 pm

Hello,
I wish to use commercialy some public domain score of Chopin's music present on imslp.
On the site of Bibliothèque nationale de France there are the same identical digital score. You can download them and use it as 'fair use' but for commercial purpose you must ask their permission and pay a fee.
What's the matter? Are they really in public domain and I can use them the way I want or they are not in public domain since I must ask perfmission and pay fees to the Bibliothèque nationale de France? Please help

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby coulonnus » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:42 am

You may perform the works with an entrance fee and sell your CDs with the works, but you may not sell reproductions of their reproduction. Their reproduction has the status of derivative work.

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby copyrighted » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:46 pm

If I want to put a page of this score as cover of my CD or use it the entire score on a commercial video, why cannot do it since it is in the public domain?! :roll:

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby cypressdome » Mon May 01, 2017 4:04 am

coulonnus wrote:Their reproduction has the status of derivative work.

At least in the United States this is definitely not so. A photographic reproduction of a work that is in the public domain is not protected under copyright. See: Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.. Also, note the final paragraph of that article which implies that such images will not be granted copyright protection in either the U.K. or E.U.

If the score is in the public domain any exact photographic reproduction of it is as well.

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby coulonnus » Mon May 01, 2017 5:32 am

In the UK: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/atyourdesk/permissions/permiskey/permiskey.html
"If you wish to reproduce our images, you will need to obtain our permission."

https://www.bl.uk/help/how-can-i-use-the-images-i-order
"The Library will charge a fee for permission to reproduce our collections". And see their "fee schedule"!

I can't seem to find the Super magic copyright thread in our Journal. :-)

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby Sallen112 » Mon May 01, 2017 8:34 am

coulonnus wrote:In the UK: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/atyourdesk/permissions/permiskey/permiskey.html
"If you wish to reproduce our images, you will need to obtain our permission."

https://www.bl.uk/help/how-can-i-use-the-images-i-order
"The Library will charge a fee for permission to reproduce our collections". And see their "fee schedule"!

I can't seem to find the Super magic copyright thread in our Journal. :-)


Basically what that tells me is that library is imposing their own bogus copyright scheme on their materials (even if they don't say it is, they act like they own the rights in a way), even if materials are public domain! Its basically total restricted access across to board for every item in their library (almost, except for personal use).

I can see a benefit for their library to charge the fees, extra income for the library, which is fine, but would rather if they relied on solely donations or government funding for the library operations.

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby coulonnus » Mon May 01, 2017 9:02 am

Note that in the first two copyright pages Gallica=BNF appends to each pdf you download, they invoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis_database_right for their copyright claim.

In the 90's, before this law existed, when I ordered a reproduction from BNF I had to check their box "for my personal use only".

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby cypressdome » Tue May 02, 2017 2:30 am

Libraries using database rights seems to me to be just a questionable means for them to claim ownership of images of works in the public domain. I'm glad to see that the U.S. (surprisingly) doesn't honor such attempts to circumvent copyright law.

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby coulonnus » Tue May 02, 2017 7:23 am

Then what to reply to copyrighted, assuming he lives in the US?

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby copyrighted » Tue May 02, 2017 10:43 pm

... so, in the middle of this mess I still don't know if I can use freely Chopin's scanned editions from Gallica or they are "fake" public domain ... :evil:

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby copyrighted » Tue May 02, 2017 10:44 pm

coulonnus wrote:Then what to reply to copyrighted, assuming he lives in the US?

I live in the E.U. :D

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby Sallen112 » Wed May 03, 2017 1:14 am

copyrighted wrote:... so, in the middle of this mess I still don't know if I can use freely Chopin's scanned editions from Gallica or they are "fake" public domain ... :evil:


As long as their are no contributors like editors or arrangers who are under copyright that you would need to obtain permission for if they died too recently (life + 50). The scores on BNF mostly are in the Public Domain everywhere from what I have seen but I am sure not everything is on their is totally fair game so you have to be careful.

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby cypressdome » Wed May 03, 2017 2:51 am

If the images in question are from 19th century editions of works by Chopin there are probably scores of libraries in Europe that have those same editions available--many probably online. If you're not comfortable using BNF's image check the German and Polish libraries found on this page. Furthermore, unless the image is stamped with BNF's logo how can BNF prove that the image that copyrighted uses for his cd cover/booklet (probably in a much lower resolution than the original image) of a widely available 19th century edition in the public domain is the image taken from the BNF copy?

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby coulonnus » Wed May 03, 2017 5:47 am

@copyrighted: http://imslp.org/wiki/Fantaisie,_Op.49_(Chopin,_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric) Schlesinger, Plate 3489 is in my collection (except the cover). I can rescan it in colors for your CD or video, if it helps. Which resolution do you need?

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Re: "Public domain" scores from the Bibliothèque nationale de France

Postby coulonnus » Wed May 03, 2017 5:58 am

If you download the 400-dpi images directly with a series of links like http://gallica.bnf.fr//iiif/ark:/12148/btv1b52500522z/f001/full/full/0/native.jpg you don't see the copyright notices.

Search "gallica.bnf.fr//iiif/ark" with Google and you will find quite a few pages recommending this method, e.g. "Récupérer de la HD sur Gallica"


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