At such a juncture it is normally appropriate to investigate the composition itself in detail to judge the appropriateness of tags: it would not be impossible for it to have a unique tag, since there are plenty of sui generis Baroque works. It is merely whether the work justifies the 2ob bn tag in addition to the 2ob bc tag.
PML
Does the category walker really works well?
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Notenschreiber
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Re: Does the category walker really works well?
@ PML. Being not sure if you followed the whole discussion, I want give some explanations. First I had the opinion,
that the category walker should give all pieces which may be played reasonably by a given instrumentation. But one convinced
me, that there are too many possibilities and the criterions are not precisely enough. In the concrete case of a baroque trio sonate
the tag "for 2 Oboes" should only be made, if the 2 Oboes occur in the title. The bass voice should be called "continuo". I agree with
this now. If somebody is looking for 2 Oboes and bassoon in the baroque era, he can search for 2 Oboes and continuo and
will find the desired results. In that sense all trios for 2 Oboes with continuo are trios for 2 Oboes and bassoon (the double reed
combination is very suitable). But it makes no sense to tag the Heinichen Trio for 2 Oboes and bassoon and all the others not.
that the category walker should give all pieces which may be played reasonably by a given instrumentation. But one convinced
me, that there are too many possibilities and the criterions are not precisely enough. In the concrete case of a baroque trio sonate
the tag "for 2 Oboes" should only be made, if the 2 Oboes occur in the title. The bass voice should be called "continuo". I agree with
this now. If somebody is looking for 2 Oboes and bassoon in the baroque era, he can search for 2 Oboes and continuo and
will find the desired results. In that sense all trios for 2 Oboes with continuo are trios for 2 Oboes and bassoon (the double reed
combination is very suitable). But it makes no sense to tag the Heinichen Trio for 2 Oboes and bassoon and all the others not.
Last edited by Notenschreiber on Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Does the category walker really works well?
I'm sorry that I am replying late to this, I've been busy at work.
I did, however, want to check some oboe text books to look up any information about Heinichen and his oboe works, which unfortunately, the books didn't have (Geoffrey Burgess and Bruce Haynes). I still want to look through IDRS journals to check, but I don't have access to them right now (different library, different school). I take your point that there were no specific 2 oboe/bassoon trios then, and that the Heinichen manuscript was done by a copyist, but the fact that a copyist from that period put that title on it indicates that someone from that time intended playing it with that combination.
We can't tag according to how many works will be on a list, or simply to move a work from one list to another that will have more works with the same instrumentation. This would mean deliberately being inaccurate, or not tagging according to title. In any case, every list you see here at some point or another had only one work on it. It's a start. If we move the Heinichen, then someone might write a trio for that instrumentation tomorrow, and then it would be the only work on the list.
I haven't forgotten about the Heinichen, and I am doing research, when I have time, to try to get to a firm answer, but for the moment, despite the fact that generally there were no 2 oboe/bassoon trios, the fact is also that a copyist from that period wrote the title as "Sonata à 3. Hautbois 1. Hautbois 2. con Bassoon."
If the autograph manuscript ever appears, I will be very happy to change the work page title, and tag, to whatever was in Heinichen's own hand, but for the moment, the work will have two tags, because the parts say basso, which also ties in with the "b.c." publishers reference you gave. Again, we don't know that the publisher used Heinichen's own title.
Please bear in mind that the librarians have to take their information from "reputable" sources. An autograph manuscript takes first prize. Second would be an authority such as Grove Music or other scholarly publication. (Grove, by the way, doesn't give a very complete list of work for Heinichen.) Publishers themselves are sometimes in third place because they change titles sometimes for marketing purposes, or put works in collections where the title is completely different.
I see no way around this for the moment other than to leave the tags the way they are, but keep looking for a scholarly source.
On the other hand, you have brought a possible problem to our attention, so thank you for that. It will stay at the back of my mind, and when I get a chance to scour the IDRS research articles, I will do so.
I did, however, want to check some oboe text books to look up any information about Heinichen and his oboe works, which unfortunately, the books didn't have (Geoffrey Burgess and Bruce Haynes). I still want to look through IDRS journals to check, but I don't have access to them right now (different library, different school). I take your point that there were no specific 2 oboe/bassoon trios then, and that the Heinichen manuscript was done by a copyist, but the fact that a copyist from that period put that title on it indicates that someone from that time intended playing it with that combination.
We can't tag according to how many works will be on a list, or simply to move a work from one list to another that will have more works with the same instrumentation. This would mean deliberately being inaccurate, or not tagging according to title. In any case, every list you see here at some point or another had only one work on it. It's a start. If we move the Heinichen, then someone might write a trio for that instrumentation tomorrow, and then it would be the only work on the list.
I haven't forgotten about the Heinichen, and I am doing research, when I have time, to try to get to a firm answer, but for the moment, despite the fact that generally there were no 2 oboe/bassoon trios, the fact is also that a copyist from that period wrote the title as "Sonata à 3. Hautbois 1. Hautbois 2. con Bassoon."
If the autograph manuscript ever appears, I will be very happy to change the work page title, and tag, to whatever was in Heinichen's own hand, but for the moment, the work will have two tags, because the parts say basso, which also ties in with the "b.c." publishers reference you gave. Again, we don't know that the publisher used Heinichen's own title.
Please bear in mind that the librarians have to take their information from "reputable" sources. An autograph manuscript takes first prize. Second would be an authority such as Grove Music or other scholarly publication. (Grove, by the way, doesn't give a very complete list of work for Heinichen.) Publishers themselves are sometimes in third place because they change titles sometimes for marketing purposes, or put works in collections where the title is completely different.
I see no way around this for the moment other than to leave the tags the way they are, but keep looking for a scholarly source.
On the other hand, you have brought a possible problem to our attention, so thank you for that. It will stay at the back of my mind, and when I get a chance to scour the IDRS research articles, I will do so.
bsteltz